Welcome to episode seven of the Energy Balance Podcast. I'm Jay Feldman of JayFeldmanWallet.com and joining me today is my good friend Mike Fave of SapienSystems.com. Today we're going to be talking about the different macronutrients, so carbs, protein, and fat.

We'll be talking through some of the details there and we'll go through carbohydrates versus fats as a fuel source from the bio-energetic view, from the view of energy balance. And we'll also talk about the other roles that these macronutrients play in our bodies and then we'll talk through how much of these different macros we want to be eating and also the ratios that we want to maintain in order to support energy balance.

To check out the show notes for this episode, head over to JFeldmanWalnuts.com/ podcast, where I'll be linking to any of the studies or articles or other things that we referenced throughout the episode. And if you're dealing with any low energy symptoms, whether that's fatigue or brain fog or weight gain or any sorts of chronic health conditions, or if you're just looking to optimize your health, head over to JFeldmanWalnuts.com slash energy and sign up for a free mini course on energy balance, where I'll be walking you through the things that you can do to support energy production and the things that you want to avoid in order to make sure that you don't block that process. And with that, let's get started. All right. So there's three basic macronutrients with protein, carbs and fat. And one of the main areas of contention is which of these is the best fuel. And most people are looking at carbs and fats as the main fuel here. And that's because protein is used more as a structural component.

And less often as a fuel component. And we'll talk about why that is, but the big question that most people will discuss is whether carbs or fat are better as a fuel and why one might be better than the other. So let's start by talking about those, some of the different myths or ideas that are circulating about each of them and then kind of the functions that each of them play. And so one of the, like, there's a lot of different ideas as far as whether carbs are better as a fuel, better for producing energy, whether we want to be running more on carbs or running on fat, whether we want to be fat burners. And there's a few different arguments kind of for each side. So one of the main arguments in favor of people talking about wanting to use fat as a fuel, wanting to be a fat burner, is they'll talk about fat being a more efficient fuel or that fat holds more energy in each molecule like each molecule each molecule fat holds more energy. So for these reasons fat is better from an energy standpoint, which is of course that main lens through which we're looking at all of these factors. So let's start with that and just talk about like why that's not well why that's true. It doesn't mean that fat is actually better from an energy standpoint. So I guess we can the most before you even get into the nitty gritty of physiology or anything like that. I guess the easiest part to start with is the fact that number one, need carbohydrate to run on period. Like your body, need some type of carbohydrate. There's never going to be a point where you're not going to have carbohydrate. And so like a lot of the arguments for, to talk about in favor of fat burning involved the idea, well, your body produces its own carbohydrates.

So why would I have to ingest it? I can just, I can just use gluconeogenesis, which is essentially exactly what it sounds like, the creation of new glucose and it's from amino acids generally by the liver. So when you don't have enough carbohydrate coming in, you use gluconeogenesis, your body uses technically cortisol and stress hormones to break down proteins and provide amino acids for the liver to turn those amino acids into glucose.

So in the case that you don't have enough carbs going in and you're purely running on fat, you still are producing carbs, they are that important. And using those carbs or getting those carbs requires a stress pathway. It requires an adaptive hormone to produce those carbs. So just in and of itself, you are signaling to your body, hey, I don't have enough carbs present, I need to rely on these adaptive hormones. Even if you have adequate fat, even if you have enough fat that you need or you're...

Jay
intake and up that you're still certain tissues require that carbohydrate component. So before you even get to what happens on like a cellular level or happens in the mitochondrial level, just in general, you'd need to use adaptive stress hormones to produce carbohydrate when you are only intaking fat. So from there, like the argument in my mind is just it sort of becomes slightly invalid at just at that base level, just because you have to do that. So the main point  that other people will make who are in favor of low carb or no carb is we'll say that, oh, you don't need to eat carbs because our body will produce them ourselves. And the assumption there is that there's no cost or like no reason for us not to want that to happen. And what you're basically saying is a yes, bodies will create carbs and that's because they're extremely important. They're required, they're necessary. And we'll talk about why that is. And then you're also saying that there is a cost there and that cost is that It requires these adaptive stress pathways that in the long term end up essentially taking resources from other areas of our body. But they also, because they're part of these stress pathways, they signal other stress pathways. So if these kinds of things continue over time, it's basically a suggestion that our environment is not ideal. And because of that, it leads to the depression of our metabolism, the depression of thyroid hormones, reproductive hormones of those other factors because it requires this adaptive stress pathway in order to maintain this nutrient that we require, but in order to produce ourselves. Yeah, I think it's just important to point out that glucose is so important that even in an absence of it, our body is going to break down our own tissues to produce it, which doesn't, in my mind, that doesn't mean that, we can go without it. It means that it is that important to intake. It is that important to consume.

So this idea of like, we produce it so we don't have it. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And then the other thing to bring into consideration here is that the conversion of amino acids into glucose is not a clean process. It's not like an ideal process. mean, number one, where are these amino acids coming from? They're coming from your own tissues. It's not coming from nowhere. Or from the diet if you're eating a lot of protein. Or from diet if you're eating adequate amounts of protein.

But even beyond that, if you... I still feel like you couldn't eat enough protein to meet an adequate carbohydrate requirement for an optimal metabolism. As you're saying, the signal is still going to have to lower metabolism in general to a point where you're basically on almost subsistence level requirement for carbohydrate. And then the next point is the process of turning those amino acids into glucose is not a clean process. There's the production of ammonia from that, which is relatively toxic. And a lot of people can actually handle it.

Our livers are set up to handle it to some extent, but it's more of an adaptive process. It's more of a backup process, and it is a fundamental process that you want to run on in general. The ideal situation, and it's pretty well known in bodybuilding, is that carbohydrates spare protein. And that's because when you have adequate carbohydrate coming in, you don't need to have an excess of protein.

To break down, to produce, which will be broken down to produce other carbohydrates. The protein will go towards the structural components and other necessary functions in the body, and it doesn't need to be turned into amino acids to be oxidized. So there's like, just based on those ideas in general, it almost doesn't make sense to even like go to the cellular pathway and look at these, look at these general structures. just, if you look at it from like a basic overview, I mean, we're still gonna go there, but.

Just from the basic overview, like you're gonna wanna have some carb, you're wanna have some protein, relying on some adaptive processes is an ideal. And then obviously the signal is another important point as you brought up that, like not having enough carbohydrate present and relying on adaptive hormones signals a down regulation in metabolism. And there's different studies, like for example, there's relationships between cortisol or upregulation of cortisol and then the expressions of or the change in hormonal profile.

Where you see when you upregulate cortisol on extremely low carb diets, or like in general when you upregulate cortisol, you upregulate a whole bunch of other processes in the body. You don't just get cortisol. There's like increases in expression of things like aromatase, which is the enzyme that converts your testosterone into estrogen. And then there's also like certain studies that show inverse relationships between the amount of protein in the diet and testosterone in the amount.

Jay
Linear relationships between the amount of testosterone in the diet with the amount of carbohydrate present. There's a reason for these things and it's dependent upon metabolism, it's dependent upon these switches, these metabolic switches. So elevated cortisol is an issue, yes, but it's also like overall in general to signal to the body as like of the current environment of what's currently available in the body adjusts multiple processes in that vein to fit the environment.

That's overall, it has a generally negative effect in comparison to what's possible on the other metabolic spectrum. Yeah. And it's not just cortisol, it's all the stress hormones, even the less extreme ones, which is important to mention because some people in favor of low carb or low or no carb will say, yeah, doesn't require like at first you have a lot of cortisol, but then you only have elevated levels of glucagon and maybe some adrenaline. But those are stress hormones as well.

We talked a little bit in the episode about blood sugar, about how, elevated glucagon is basically the key feature of diabetes. and is increased when we have low energy, essentially low cellular energy. So, yeah. So, so to kind of summarize what you're saying, a couple of the main points for that, if we're, even if we're getting the carbohydrate that we need from the protein that we're eating, protein eventually getting converted to glucose is that that requires stress pathways. So even if it's not breaking down your own tissue with cortisol, it's still going to be driving these stress pathways, although to a slightly lesser extent than if it was breaking down your own tissues. And that leads to a downstream cascade of effects that ends up dampening our metabolism and taking resources from other areas. All the things that we talked about earlier that happen when our bodies essentially are operating on a lower energy level.

Um, so, go ahead. No, that's fine. Go. No, finish your point. then I don't know where I was going. So it went, yep. It went. What I was going to say is I think there's like prime examples of people like in the low carb and paleo communities and even cardboard communities where they're having blood tests come out and they're posting them online and they have ridiculously high cholesterol levels. have testosterone levels in the dirt and their thyroid panels look terrible.

Jay
And it's yeah, they don't have carbohydrates. So and then you have a lot of them are imposing what their cortisol levels look like or what their prolactin levels are, what estrogen levels are, what catecholamine levels are things like catecholamine adrenaline, things like that. So like when you look at these, you don't even you don't even necessarily need them. If I have a guy who's like working out consistently and eats pretty well and he comes to me and he shows me a testosterone level of 300, it's like, yeah, you got something going on. that's necessarily like that's even by the current standards.

Which are, I mean, you can consider them low for testosterone, even by the current standards, which continue to drop. 300 is very low. 300, depending on your age range especially, 300 is very low. And then when you start to look at things like your cholesterol in ridiculous ranges, like that's indicative of some type of metabolic issue. It doesn't necessarily mean that cholesterol is a problem. That cholesterol itself is the problem.

It just means that the cholesterol isn't being moved into a particular function. So when you have that elevation, it's oftentimes a sign of hypothyroidism, when you have that elevation of cholesterol like that, sit there and you have probably a thyroid function, probably something going on with thyroid or maybe an infection or something like that. What do you think about the elevated cholesterol like that? Go ahead. The thyroid is kind of almost a sidestep. The main factor there is that when you have high cholesterol, it means that it's not being converted to downstream hormones, like the protective hormones. So therefore, and that is metabolically regulated. So it's just a sign of a low energy state, a low metabolism. And so all of this, again, kind of circling back, zooming back out, this was based on the argument that, oh, we only eat carbs because our body makes them ourselves. But as we talked about, making them ourselves requires the stress pathway. It also only ends up providing you with the minimum amount required for function, which is something that you really briefly mentioned, but it's an important point, which is that, and we'll talk about why carbs are important and why we don't want to just get by on the minimum. But yeah, that's just an important point to consider is that it's not like we're producing the same amount of carbs that we would be using if we were eating a higher carb diet. And also the minimum doesn't mean that if you go, like if you're going over the minimum amount that you need, that you're going to get fat. And this goes back to our other conversation on the idea of calories in calories out and metaphernalia.

Jay
Metabolic efficiency and things like that. Just because you're not meeting the base minimum requirement that your body needs to survive does not mean that if you more than that you're going to get fat. That's entirely not how the process works. So if you want to understand where we're coming from with that, then I would go take a look at the previous episodes where we discussed that. We go into greater detail on why. Yeah, that was the first episode on energy. And I'll link to some articles on that too, because it's an important point.

So moving on from that argument, one of the arguments, one of the next arguments is that, you know, fat holds as far as which one is better from the energy standpoint. People will say that fat holds more energy and therefore, and it's also more efficient. They're kind of two different points, but when we're talking about energy availability and energy production, and we talked about this again in that calories in calories out conversation, the potential energy held in, in macronutrient in this case, whether it's carbs or fat isn't really relevant because typically the limiting factor is the conversion of that macronutrient to energy. And so that's another way of saying is that it's another way of saying that the efficiency of the energy production system is more important than how much potential energy is there. And so what I'm kind of getting at is that because, and we'll talk about why, but because fats are less efficiently used as a fuel in mitochondrial respiration, they are burned slower, essentially. There's all these basically breaks in the system that slow down the process. it does end up being, I mean, it depends what you mean by efficient, but you can last longer burning fat, but you're going to produce less energy from it because when you burn fat for fuel through the process of mitochondrial respiration, you end up slowing down that whole process.

So even though... Not just burn fat in general. I'm talking on like an individual cellular level. like... just want to clarify that because we're going to get to the idea of partitioning. We're not saying when you burn fat overall, just like on a specific cellular level, the very basic, on the very specific mechanics, when you burn fat, it slows down the metabolic apparatus to some extent, as compared to...

Jay
Something like glucose. Yeah. And it's less efficient and we'll talk about all that. but yeah. So the main idea there being that just because a molecule of fat holds more potential energy than a molecule of carbohydrate doesn't mean it's a better energy source. that's kind of like just the baseline counter argument there. And then the last common myth that we hear a lot, is talking about insulin. So insulin does get released in response to consuming carbohydrates. And it does help those carbohydrates enter the cells. and there's the reason, like the myth is basically that driving more insulin leads to insulin resistance. And then that causes weight gain and insulin resistance does cause weight gain, but it's not caused by too much insulin. And we talked about that a decent amount in the blood trigger episode. And also have a couple of articles on that, but the basic idea here is just that Insulin resistance is caused by the inability of the cells to convert carbohydrates or glucose to energy. So it's an inhibition of mitochondrial respiration. And that's what leads to the issues regarding insulin. it's not the general idea is that insulin resistance is a transport problem where you can't trans like the cells don't respond to insulin properly. And so they don't transport glucose from the like the glucose doesn't get transported from the blood to the cells.

But I have a couple articles in a video on this explaining why that's not the case and it actually is it's caused by a lack of or inhibited glucose oxidation instead. So I think we should unless there's something you want to add there maybe we can just move on. think that ties in nicely with the idea that the body if given the correct amount of nutrients and like fuel source whatever and not having any type of inhibitor on it is able to actually burn through the fuel that you provided is able to convert into energy and use it. that, like, I think, like, back, you're going to go into more of the specifics there in those articles, maybe later on we'll talk about the insulin pathways, or even in the blood sugar issue, we talked about it specifically. But I hand in hand with, if you have enough fuel, and you have the right type of fuel, and you don't have anything inhibiting the conversion of the fuel to energy, then it shouldn't be, the body should be able to stream that energy, and should be able to use it going to push it into that. so there's much more to the scenario than the basic idea of calories and calories out. I have this amount of calories, or I eat as much carbs than insulin. there's way more to the scenario than that. These are, at best, guess, research variables, I would say, that they try to look at to look for a particular. This is the prime cause. It's like, there's multiple factors going on.

There's multiple factors but that all centers around the energy production process. Exactly. The energy production process takes center stage and then it's how are those things, how are these different factors affecting the energy production process and then like how are they interrelated. We have our core component there and then there's the factors around it essentially. Yeah, yeah. So we started off talking about the need for glucose and why glucose is required.

Or the fact that glucose is required and we know that because if we don't eat it, we still produce it. And there's an important reason why glucose is required. that'll, I think we should touch on that now, which is basically that, especially in our nervous system and in our brains, glucose is basically, I should start by saying that fat can't be used for fuel in our nervous system, especially in the brain. So the reason for people bring up the ketone thing. just want to... Yeah, so ketones can be used. Basically, our... What's that? You can only rely on ketones essentially. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, basically, even if you're only taking ketones, the brain still uses... Like even if you're eating zero carbohydrates and like very high fat and low carb, basically, if you're eating a ketogenic diet, the brain still will use some amount of glucose. It won't use entirely ketones.

But it can use ketones, can use glucose, but it can't use fat. like as far as ketones go, I think they're actually fine as a fuel. They're actually a good fuel. The issue is the processes that go on to produce them. So in the same way that when we're deficient in glucose, we go through this, we need these adaptive stress pathways to produce glucose. If we don't have enough glucose available, then those adaptive stress pathways also drive ketone production.

Jay
And that's really where the problem is. The problem isn't with ketones themselves. Ketones themselves are a pretty decent fuel, which is why our brain uses them. But it's more just a substitute for glucose because producing glucose is taxing and very stressful. But yeah, in contrast, our brains can't use fat. And the reason for that has to do with how fat is oxidized in the mitochondria or how basically how we produce energy from fats. And because talk about why, because fats are so much less efficient for producing energy, our brains can't use them. They have to use either ketones or glucose, which takes us to that process. So basically, is it that glucose specifically, but also ketones, why is it that the energy production with those fuels is so much better than with fats?

And there's basically two reasons. we'll just kind of, I don't want to take too much time talking about the, the in-depth physiology, but we'll at least touch on it. So there's two main differences between, burning or oxidizing carbs and fats as a fuel. And the first one is the amount of FADH2 and NADH that are produced. And the second one is carbon dioxide production. So when we're burning carbs instead of fats, I guess I should say fats instead of carbs. When we burn fats, we produce a much higher ratio of FADH2 to NADH. We produce a lot more FADH2 and less NADH. And we produce a lot less carbon dioxide, CO2. And this leads to a bunch of downstream effects that very drastically regulates mitochondrial respiration. So when we're burning fats as a fuel, we have higher FADH2 and lower NADH.

And that leads to greater production of reactive oxygen species along the electron transport chain. And then it also leads to a lower NAD to NADH ratio. And then both of these things have downstream effects that ends up slowing down the entire process of mitochondrial respiration. So it slows down the citric acid cycle. It slows down glycolysis. part of this helps direct fats into the mitochondria for energy production, but it also just slows down the entire process.

Jay
And this is both of these are both these effects. And then also the effects of CO2 are why we use fat as a fuel when we're starving. It's because it's easier to store and because it burns slower. it basically all of these systems work together to slow down our general metabolism. So that way we can survive longer. there's a reason for that. There's a reason that these are like they signal, they are used for that process and that they signal the slowing down. Like it's done on purpose. It's doesn't, it's

Not because they're terrible, it's because it makes the most sense. Right, exactly. And so then the CO2 production, basically, when we burn fat, we produce a lot less carbon dioxide, about 30 % less. And this has two main effects. So one is that higher carbon dioxide produced at the cell increases oxygenation of the cell. And this is through the Bohr effect, where the offloading of oxygen from the red blood cells from Hibigobin increases when you have more CO2 present at the cellular level. So basically more CO2 means more oxygenation and when you're burning fat you have less CO2 so you have less oxygenation of the cell which helps to slow down mitochondrial respiration. And then you also have some other protective effects of CO2 that you have less of when you're burning fat. So CO2 is actually pretty effective at protecting against reactive oxygen species and reactive nitrogen species. So these are both just like damaging factors in the cells.

And are by of energy production. Yeah, they can be. They're also just byproducts of damage in general. Yeah. And so carbon dioxide protects protects against those things. So those are like on the deeper level. Those are the two main things that are differences between mitochondrial respiration, between fats and carbs. And those are why carbs are more efficient on that cellular level. It's why our brains can't use fats as a fuel because of these different effects.

And ketones are more similar to glucose and how in both of those effects too, which is why our brains can use ketones. So I do have an article that details all of that a little bit more. It goes through all the more depth. If you want to take a look at that, I'll link to it, but let's zoom out now. I mean, now that we've gone over that, let's zoom out and talk about like why that's relevant. I wanted to add like a few things specifically in carbon dioxide. Sure. There's a lot of, mean, this is I think Chris Masterjohn has talked about this and some other important people, physiologists and whatnot. But basically, specifically for CO2 and everyone's like in the paleosphere and whatnot, the idea of vitamin K is all the rage. For activating vitamin K and having vitamin K function properly on some of the proteins, it requires CO2. can't, like it's not gonna, at least as far as I understand, you're not gonna be able to use vitamin K appropriately and carboxylate the proteins that I think is GLA proteins appropriately without CO2. And then there's also talk about basically Ray discussed it based on Gilbert Link's work essentially that carbon dioxide in general has a stabilizing effect on the on proteins and structure of the body overall. Yeah. So like the idea that the idea that carbon dioxide just a gas and it just diffuses outside of the body once one after you go through cell respiration using, after you go through cell respiration in general, like, there's actually a direct function of carbon dioxide. And overall, the interplay between carbon dioxide and oxygen is like, key, not only in our own bodies, the different with the boron, the Haldane effects and the different concentrations of carbon dioxide cell and oxygen at the lungs, but also in the interplay in the environment between plants and the organisms that live in the environment, where there's an interplay between

and exchange essentially where the carbon dioxide that we exhale plants are going to fix into sugar with sunlight and then produce oxygen and we're going to use that oxygen to burn those products and then produce carbon dioxide. So it's like a beautiful system that works back and forth with each other just across the entire environment. And so even in our, so like you have it as a specific like extremely beneficial component in the body. You also have it like as a that interplay between carbon dioxide and oxygen as like a valuable and extremely key component of the entire like I would say biosphere in general. So they're like overall they have like I think in my opinion they have like very primordial importance in the body and a lot of people think of carbon dioxide is just the gas and in some of in some of like Ray's writings and I think in some of Gilbert Langsberg which I'm not as well versed in, carbon dioxide almost has like you could see almost more of like a general like stabilizer or a general like it almost like it has a hormonal effect in the current medical context in and of itself. And like I guess another function that people don't really talk about with this that it actually is the basal dilator. The only person really talk about that it's like really old research articles or array.

I mean, personally for me, and this is slightly tangential, but I've used carbon dioxide on areas that I've wounded where I've like, I broke my foot and I put my foot in a bag of CO2 essentially. And you combine it with red light and you basically have like an, and obviously you have, you've taken a decent amount of like optimal amounts of carbohydrate and you have like a system where you have

The red light is removing nitric oxide from the respiratory chain and then carbon dioxide is allowing your body to accept oxygen to the final electron acceptor. And then you have carbol you take in enough carbohydrate and you basically are running the chain and it increased my healing. like it has like a general basal dilation effect. You can feel it and you can definitely feel it when you use any type of CO2. And it's like it creates a warmth and like the tissue sort of get like really good amount of blood flow and it feels generally good overall. So there's like a, there's a potent effect to it. And I think it's very important. Not something that a lot of that could be glossed over like a lot of people gloss over. I know there's the argument now and like all the different health fears and all that, but I think that increase in carbon dioxide production by carbohydrate oxidation is very important. And something that like we should really be looking at overall. Yeah. Just to clarify one thing that you said was about vasodilation in the mainstream, mean, the textbooks, it'll talk about carbon dioxide being one of the primary vasodilator, which it is, but a lot of people think of nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is the primary vasodilator. But yeah, in reality, it's carbon dioxide. So when we're not producing enough carbon dioxide, that means you have basically less vasodilation and less circulation, less efficient circulation. So that's one, that's an important point. The other thing too, you were talking about

Jay
Carbon dioxide interactions when it leaves and enters the cell and that also helps with the pH balance and basically moves minerals between the inner and outer parts of the cell and it's a more in-depth topic but it's just another feature of carbon dioxide production that's important to consider. And the pH is extremely important to clean this extremely well. Yeah, yeah. The bicarbonate carbon dioxide system and like carbonic acid system in our blood is like, vitally important to our pH maintenance. Like it's like a huge key component. So like you can't overlook those different, those different aspects. And then just, since you said nitric oxide, yes, CO2 is the main basodilator and it's sort of like, it's an interesting, it's almost like a switch. So like you look at carbon dioxide, the main, it's supposedly the main basodilator. Obviously there's all this mainstream stuff about nitric oxide.

But the carbon dioxide allows the respiratory train to work well because it allows oxygen to be the final electron acceptor in the electron transport chain. Whereas nitric oxide as a basal dilator in a backup actually shuts down the electron transport chain. I think by turning off cytochrome or binding into the cytochrome C oxidase. So like it actually, it is a basal dilator, but it also shuts down the respiratory apparatus, which is not ideal. not what you want. You be wanting to produce more carbon dioxide and having that as like the general base dilator. it's like one of the main, nitric oxide is one of the main features of the stress cascade. And yeah, so when we're in this stress state, it's like through this emergency pathway, you're increasing vasodilation. You're also shutting down certain parts of respiration to drive fat oxidation over carb oxidation. yeah, nitric oxide is just one of the main factors there. There's a ton to talk about there.

Fascinating topic that maybe we'll leave it there for now, but we'll talk about in the future for sure. I just think it's important to bring up because that aspect ties directly in the idea of oxidizing carbs versus fats in general and why that's important. Why it's important to oxidize carbs just based on general cellular mechanics. Yeah, so to zoom back out a little bit, basically we've talked about this difference between using fats and carbs as a fuel in the individual cell or an individual mitochondrion. And that that is the main reason why the brain and nervous system require carbohydrates to function most efficiently or some ketones too. again, we talked about why we don't want to be in a place where we're producing ketones because that means we're already in a stress state. the reason why... So this doesn't mean that we always want to be oxidizing carbohydrates and we never want to be oxidizing fats. It just means that each of them have different roles and carbs are ideal for producing greater amounts of energy at a greater rate and fats are better at keeping everything slower. And so that kind of takes us. It also means that we don't want to have either or like it's not only going to be fats or only going to be carbs. And this is I think this is where you're going. where you're getting. So it's not only fats and only carbs and it's not  like you don't have to choose between them. You're going to, we're going to get to it basically. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so let's touch real quick on the Randall cycle and fuel partitioning. And then we'll talk about why we want both carbs and fats. so the basics of the Randall cycle, which is, again, just a part of these same systems that we had just gone through on the mitochondrial side, where basically the burning or oxidizing of carbs ends up stopping the oxidizing of fats and vice versa.

And all that means is essentially that at any particular moment, a cell can only be burning carbs or fats primarily. A lot of people kind of misapply this to think that our entire body can only be using carbs efficiently or fats efficiently. And if the entire body is using carbs, that means that you can't be burning fat. So any fat you take in, you're going to store body fat and vice versa. If your body's only using fats, then any carbs you take in are going to be converted to fat.

And that's not the case. The Randall cycle is a phenomenon that occurs on the individual cellular basis, but not on the body as a whole. It doesn't work that way necessarily on a macro level. And I think a lot of people misapply it to the macro level. And then you start seeing things, for example, with people saying, I'm only going to have carbs in this meal, and then I'm only going to have fats in this meal, because the Randall cycle. It's like literally like the end Randall cycle in clothes.

Jay (35:56.64)
like cause Randall's ankle. Right. So let's talk about what happens instead of that. Do you want to, do you want to start with that? Yeah, that works. So basically, I mean, this is coming from, I think for both of us when we, cause we misapplied it to start as well, where we tried very low carb or we tried very low carb and we also tried very low fat diets. And in both situations, we both ran into like very similar issues so I guess just in general summation, when we were on very low carb, we suffered workouts, our sleep was a bit suffering, cold hands, cold feet, and then some mood disturbances and stuff like that, which I think is pretty common in the low carb sphere. you know, there's another important one there too. Then when we went on very low fat, our workouts were doing well.

And we had like a decent amount of energy, but there was like, we couldn't last between meals. satiety was like a, was a big issue. were pounding orange juice and pineapple juice and trying to like white rice and things like that, probably like every hour or two hours. So we would just burn right through it. For me, I had issues with libido on low, low fat, very low fat as well. And then issues with like brain fog and then some digestive function issues.

And then my workouts were going well for a while, but I found it hard to maintain muscle mass and to progress. And then the biggest issue with the low fat was the constant adrenaline rushes. constant, for me it was like sweating and jitteriness. And it was like after, and this is what the problem with lasting between meals, after like an hour or two hours, my blood sugar would just drop. And I actually had a, and it wasn't a lot of people like to say, your liver's not storing glycogen or you were having some type of insulin resistance. I actually had gotten lab work done during the very low fat period. And my hemoglobin A1C, which is a measure technically of insulin resistance or high blood sugar over an extended period of time, it was actually below reference range. It was below the reference range.

Jay
Fasting blood sugar was in these, I think the low seventies and I had taken my blood sugars directly after a meal and about an hour after the meal to see the change and I was never over 90. So it wasn't a blood sugar. It wasn't necessarily a blood sugar issue in the sense that like I was insulin resistant. I was actually extremely insulin sensitive. Yeah. And that was part of that was like part of the issue in the situation. It was just burning through everything so fast. So what we both came to, and I mean, we spent time talking about this, we were like, well, what if we had fat and we had carbs together? That was basically, was like, well, we tried either or, it didn't work. So the only option that was left for us was, we're gonna have fat and carbs together. And so what we essentially realized when we did this, and I guess I'll speak for myself in this one, then you can offer is that there seems to be some type of partitioning effect in the body where when you, have both fat and carbs together, your body will basically partition the carbs towards particular function and partition the fat towards particular function. So the way I sort of broke it down in my mind was your muscles technically are generally burned fat at rest primarily. So the way I saw it was with adequate fat intake, the fat would go towards my muscle, would be oxidized by my muscle tissue.

And then the carbohydrate would be spared for filling liver glycogen, organ function and brain function, things like that. And actually there's other beneficial effects of fat. We talked about some of them in the last podcast about just in general effect of fat and digestion and things like that. But it does also have like a stabilizing effect on blood sugar in my experience and it'll optimizing digestion and things like that so that you can stretch the needle if you have adequate amounts of fat.

So yes, basically we came down to the partitioning effect and then the other thing was and I guess Jay can expand on this one for me was essentially that in the same way we've talked about cortisol being remedied by providing adequate glucose or adequate carbohydrate and other adaptive hormones like glucagon being remedied by providing adequate adequate or a Yeah carbohydrate for glucagon.

Jay
But then for aldosterone, you provide adequate salt or adequate minerals. Adrenaline or the catecholamines seem to be remedied by providing adequate amounts of fats. And when we're talking about fats, we're talking about saturated fats. Saturated and monounsaturated fats with a preference towards desaturated. I don't think that adding PUFA or a palium saturated fat is a good idea, but I guess we're going on that based on our podcast so far, it's relatively understood.

But yes, just yeah, we'll talk about why sometime in the future. That's a that's a whole other can of worms. Yeah, yeah, I mean, a lot of good points there. I want to clarify a couple of things. One was the insulin sensitive and sensitivity. Earlier when we were talking about insulin, we didn't touch on this, but you were saying that you experienced personally very high insulin sensitivity supported by your labs when you're on a very high carb diet. And that's seen in the literature, too. So people talking about how

You have so much more insulin when you eat a high carb diet and you're going to become insulin resistant. That doesn't happen based on, I mean, really anything. I want to clarify, like I was eating this high carb diet for the high carb, low fat diet for over a year when I had gotten my labs. Yeah. Like it wasn't like I had done it for a month and then got my labs. Like this is over a year and I had hemoglobin A1C below reference range and fasting blood glucose and then glucose after meals still below 90. Like it never even went into 90. It was just.

I would just burn through it right. And this is directly after eating and then within an hour after eating as well. I mean, so I was able to like, I have a Gucamera, I was able to check and see, see where I was at. I was, I mean, I sort of knew that that's where I was, but I also was surprised that I was still like, and the meals that I was talking about was like, would be consisting of a quarter cup dry of white rice, which is about 36 to 40 grams of carbs plus 16 ounces of juice.

So this was like a meal of close to a hundred grams of carbs with very little fat and protein. you mean in those very insulinogenic meal, like it's not like a low insulin type of meal. You're saying you did have protein with it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was having protein with it, but I also tested without having protein with just having carbs and my, my blood sugar still did not spike to very high levels or anything like that. Right. Yeah. yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, I don't know how...

Jay
That kind of thing, that kind of myth has gotten started. yeah, the myth being that insulin sensitivity gets worse and insulin resistance happens when you have too high of carbs. And as we touch on in the podcast about blood sugar and a little bit today is just that insulin resistance only occurs if you're not able to oxidize those carbs or burn them as a fuel, which is dependent on all these other factors.

Anyway, circling back to what you said, you had mentioned also fuel partitioning where certain parts of our body will use different fuels. And that's not only just supported by what each of our experiences has been, but it's also supported by research, which shows that that happens even between cells. So yeah, I mean, that's, it's just kind of indirect competition or basically directly opposes the idea that the Randall cycle occurs on like the whole body level, which some people suggest that it happens, but it doesn't. And then the other thing that you mentioned was about low fat causing stress in the same way that low, like low fat in the blood causing stress in same way that low glucose causes stress. So we know that a low blood sugar leads to the release of glucagon. And then if that is not enough, then adrenaline and then cortisol. And that those help to bring our blood sugar up because we know that we need that blood sugar for fuel for our nervous system at the very least.

And an equivalent thing happens with fat. basically just this has been shown in research that when our free fatty acids drop too low, then that actually also activates the HPA access, HPA axis, is the hypo pituitary. Yeah, thank you. Hypothalamus pituitary adrenal. But basically it triggers the release of release of catecholamines like adrenaline in order to bring the free fatty acids up higher. And the reason for that is because we use those fats for fuel and we also use them for other reasons too. And it's also been shown that when that happens, if you just administer free fatty acids, then that stops the catecholamine release. So it's basically the equivalent thing that happens with sugar or blood glucose, which suggests that in the same way that glucose is a required nutrient, and if we don't get it, we can produce it through stress pathways, the same thing happens with fat.

Jay
Where fat is another required nutrient. And if we don't get enough of it, we can produce it through stress pathways. But of course, that's also something we don't want to do and leads to all these other issues in the long term. And I also think you especially don't want to do it if you spent your whole life eating poop. Yeah, I think you utilizing catecholamines to undergo basically the breakdown of fats, which is called lipolysis to produce the like elevate your free fatty acids in the bloodstream if your fat stores are filled with Pupa is not a good idea. Like it's not going to be helpful in the long run for your health. Right. Well, so just to clarify what you're saying is that these polyunsaturated fatty acids are problematic for all these reasons that we haven't talked about yet. but if you have a lot of them stored from eating them over time, then when you have low fat, in your bloodstream, for example, you're not eating enough fat, your stress system to activate by releasing stored fat.

And if that stored fat is the polyunsaturated fats, then that's going to be especially problematic. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So let's talk. That's a nice transition to basically, in addition to fuel needs, why do we require carbs and why do we require fats? And so you could say that the main reason from the carb side is for fuel needs, that this is the primary fuel for our nervous system. At the very least, we would start out at needing about 150 grams carbohydrates a day just for that. And from the fat standpoint, fat is also a fuel, it also serves for, it basically serves other purposes as well. So we talked in the gut episodes about how important fat is for digestion, keeping it clear, bio production, all of those things. But in addition, fat is important as a precursor for various hormones that we produce and also as a structural component in our cells.

So this is just another reason why if we aren't eating enough fat, we need to be producing it through the stress pathways, which we don't want to do. But that's because fat serves many purposes in addition to being the kind of resting fuel for different parts of our body. I mean, the majority of the structure of our brain is fat. The majority of the structure of our nervous system is fat. I mean, our nervous system runs on carbohydrate, but its structure is very much in a large part fat, fatty acids.

Jay
So or components that are dependent upon fatty acids. So it's important to, mean, other organs as well have different amounts of fat. So I just want to talk about like a few other components that the, that have, that fat has importance in. a little more specific besides just, so you touched on hormone production and for a lot of, I think this one specifically, I see a lot of guys now in our age group or we're in our twenties that are talking about having like low testosterone or not having a high sex drive or things like that and going on TRT. in my mind, think that testosterone replacement therapy, testosterone, exactly. I think that that's like, I don't think that that's a good answer, honestly. And RA, you should be able to produce adequate amounts of testosterone, high amounts of androgens in general, dihydrotestosterone, DHEA, things like that. I don't think that there should be a problem there. I feel like having libido issues or issues putting on muscle and things like that is indicative of an overarching problem and it's not just, you're not producing enough testosterone. And I think part of the problem is a lot of the bodybuilding stuff and a lot of guys are trying to go into that area are pushed towards low fat diets or they're pushed towards low carb diets. low calorie. Or low calorie, exactly. And all three of those will trash androgens, will trash high thyroid and androgens overall, it's not like they're not good. They're not good options. You're gonna need carbohydrates to fuel training and to fuel daily function and nervous system function and just to like have a good mood so you're not irritable all the time. But you're also gonna need fatty acids to provide the raw material for your androgen production. The androgens aren't coming from nothing.

They have to come from somewhere. And if you're rely on backup pathways, to produce adequate amounts of fatty acids and things like that. don't think androgen production is going to be the primary focus of the body if you're like really at a deficit. And obviously low calorie diets just in general just lower everything. Like you just don't have enough of everything in general. I don't think that that's a good strategy. And the equivalent for females too. You mentioned androgens but the female reproductive hormones too. Yeah, the progestogens and for females in general.

Jay
I guess you could say estrogen, too, but that's a whole other topic. Then obviously in the past episode, we talked about the optimization of digestion from fatty acids, and I'll just briefly touch on that one. Fatty acids stimulate bile acid release, they stimulate pancreatic enzymes, they help the bile acids that they stimulate induce a protective effect on the intestinal barrier.

And they also enhance enzyme functions on the brush border, or basically the small intestine lining. It's called the brush border. The bile acids and fatty acids help certain enzymes function. And they also kill the bile acids and the fatty acids themselves and the enzymes that they induce from the pancreas and then alkaline phosphatase, which is another enzyme, kills bacteria and breaks down their negative byproducts in the small intestine, which we talked about wanting to keep it as sterile as possible. And then it also induces the release of CCK or cholecystokinin, which causes the general function of the glands of the digestive tract, pancreatic functions, stomach acid secretion, and then basically like peristaltic action or the movement of the intestine in general. So it has an overall beneficial effect on digestion.

Then we already talked about how fats can spare glucose and we talked about how muscle tissue at rest is going to use fats. So that's obviously important. The next thing is that fats and lipids and cholesterol in general, particularly saturated and monounsaturated variety, provide for the production of cholesterol and fatty acids and triglycerides and chylomicrons, which is basically a combination of the fats and bile acids together.

And these are actually our body's main system of protecting against toxins and pathogens such as bacteria, viruses, fungi, and things along those lines. The cholesterol system, the triglycerides, the chylomicrons, all of these things, besides having an antibacterial effect in the intestine, actually have a beneficial detoxification effect in the bloodstream and in the body in general. So they actually, the cholesterol and the
triglycerides and chylomicrons binds, the main one to talk about is bacterial endotoxin, which is like a ubiquitous or very common poison that everybody deals with. So having enough fatty acids actually protects you from the toxic effects of those bacterial products. And then lot of people, they show that they have high blood lipids or hyperlipidemia, it generally can be indicative of, number one, of poor thyroid function.

But number two is an infection because your body will elevate the production of cholesterol during times of infection because the cholesterol binds the endotoxin and bacterial toxins and brings them to the liver to be detoxified so you don't have a strong immune response. So overall, it's very protective in general in the intestine and in the body as well. It's not to be feared. It's definitely not to be feared. And then we talked about the structural component.

And then we talked about the stabilization of blood sugar. So there's quite a few beneficial effects of fatty acids beyond purely serving as a fuel source. then obviously carbohydrates we talked about as a fuel source. then also they have different functions as well if you want to go into something like mucus production or optimizing thyroid when those are like that. Yeah. I mean, most of it centers around most of it centers on the usage of carbs as a fuel. They aren't used structurally as much. There are some minor uses for them structurally, but. Like mucus or things like that for the intestinal lining. Like it's very important to have enough to use that. Or like glycoprotein, things like different things like that. But there's uses for these things purely beyond the idea of, we're going to burn this, we're going to burn that. It's not all about that.

And fats specifically have a ton of other functions that are very important and just overlooking them as, I'm going to get fat if I eat fat and carbs. just, it's not reality, you know, it's sort of like, it doesn't really make any sense physiologically. Right. And, and as we were talking about, can, your body can be using certain amounts of each of them at the same time. it's not like if you're eating carbs on any fat will automatically become body fat, but that, the only other thing I want to touch on real quick is just proteins, general functions. So protein is mainly used as a structural component. It's not used really very efficiently as a fuel. As we talked about earlier, if we wanted to use protein as a fuel, we have to convert it to other factors or break it down further. And all of that is part of this stress metabolism. So what we want to be doing is using protein as a structural component for our muscle mass, for our bone, for all of our organ systems. Basically protein is the primary structural component that we use for all of those things, which is why it's also used for repair therefore as well because there's kind of a constant flux of degradation and regeneration going on. So you always want to be regenerating and protein is just one of the building blocks, one of the main building blocks for that. just for protein, I think it's important to say too that in this context, we are talking about animal protein as the sources that we want to use.

Yeah, I mean, yes. We talked about the issues with a lot of the plant proteins in the gut episodes. yeah. I just want to re-idiot. When we talk about proteins, we're talking about steak, eggs, fish, lean chicken breast, dairy products if you tolerate them, collagen protein if you tolerate them, things like that. Yeah. We're not talking about getting your protein from beans and nuts and mushrooms. Yeah. Same thing with carbohydrates.

There's a lot of different types of carbohydrates that have different effects. So in the last few episodes, we talked a little bit about that. what that kind of takes us to is we've talked through all the physiological effects of the different macronutrients and their different functions. So let's talk about what this looks like as far as what we should do, what an ideal diet looks like from a macro standpoint and we'll kind of build from there, some solid recommendations, I guess. Okay. So yeah, so I guess this is the practical application, where we all the theory that we just went over. Sure. So in general, I guess the easiest one to start with is protein. And protein is very simple. The idea is to get enough protein to meet your needs and not too much that you're oxidizing the protein or you're using it as a fuel source. from the resource, research, we tend to see or from from my reading of the research, I've it basically comes down to about point six to point eight grams per pound of body weight. So yeah, and that seems to be like the the happy medium where you're not you're in like a positive nitrogen balance, you're not oxidizing your protein, you have enough protein to deal with like training and things like that and life in general and liver function and all those things.

So that's the easiest one. that means if you're 150 pounds, you're looking at about 90 to 120 grams of protein. Yeah. And it's basically, again, mostly animal sources, the types that we just listed, eggs, steak, dairy products if you tolerate them, lean chicken breasts, different types of low fat, low-polyam saturated fat, seafoods.

So things along those lines. Basically animal products are what we want to shoot for with that goal. Then the next one is carbs. And in most situations, I generally say probably about twice as many carbs as you have protein. So a two to one ratio of carbs to protein. So if you have 150 grams of protein and about 300 grams of carbs. At least. And you can scale it up and down.

I generally say to scale it up. If you're very sedentary, you may not need 300 grams of carbs a day. You could probably, you may need a little bit less. So you scale it sort of up and down with your activity level. But I'd say at the bare minimum, we talked about this before, at the very bare minimum, I don't think going below 150 is a good idea. I don't think getting into ketosis is a good idea. think if you're like extremely sedentary, you're just watching Netflix all day long meet your 0.6 to 0.8 grams of protein, get your 150 grams of carbs. If you are hungry for more, they'll have more. then the last one we get to is fat. And I tend to say about 20 to 30 grams of fat per meal from saturated, monounsaturated sources. So this is like butter, beef tallow, cocoa butter. The reason I don't say coconut oil, and I guess I'll let you talk about this one. It just, doesn't process the same, but I'll let Jay will get to that one.

Just the reason I say 20 to 30 grams in a meal, that's generally what I tend to stick to for myself and what I've seen other people find works for them as well. And if you're doing a lot of activity, you may actually wind up needing more. So it depends on activity to some extent. This is just a general baseline. This is a starting point to figure out what works for you and what doesn't.

At over 30 grams in a meal, you're not very active or you're not doing a lot of physical activity and things like that, working out, whatever it is, you can tend to get nauseous or too full with having too much fat in a meal. And this is especially for people who have been eating very low carb for a while, their liver and gallbladder may not be used to that amount of fat yet. So- Low fat. Oh yeah, low fat, exactly. When they've had very low fat diets, they may not be used to taking in more fat like that. So you can have like a, your liver and gallbladder can basically dump bile and if it's been like stagnant for a while can be pretty uncomfortable and it also can get some people to runs to start because the fatty acids actually trigger all the digestive secretions so when you wind up eating fat that first time just Basically, you can get the runs. it should it should pass after a while. but I usually say to stay below 30 to start because they after 30 you start to really that starts to really become prominent and then when you get below 20 when you get below 20 grams in a meal, depending on your size and how many calories you intake in general, if you're a 5'3", 90 pound woman, you may not need that much. But if you're a 6'200 pound man, you're going to want to at least be in that range to start because you're not going be able to get enough calories unless you're to be slamming tons and tons of carbs because the protein is already not as high. So these are the two macronutrients you're going to fit in. And essentially, below that, I find that blood sugar starts to become, I guess, more chaotic. You don't last as long between meals, I guess is a better way to say it. And then, androgen production starts to tank a little bit. And then over time, I start to get a little bit of brain fog and I also can't eat as much calories without having enough fat. I for me personally, I'm at like, depending on my activity, 3,500 to 4,000 calories. So it's kind of hard to stay at 0.6 to 0.8 grams per pound of protein and then less than 20 grams of fat in a meal because then I have to eat endless amounts of carbs. So I think fat is very much necessary. I just don't feel right or I don't feel very good with less than 20 grams in a meal. And what you're pointing out is how much individuality there is. These are just very general recommendations.

Of course, some people digest fat better than others. Same thing with protein and carbs. It depends on the type of each of these. These are just general guidelines. And along with that, last one with the fat guidelines is there's also research supporting that around 40 % of getting about 40 % of your calories from fat has the highest level of reproductive hormone production. that's just a good, basically as far as macro ratio goes,

We generally talk about 40 % fat, 40 % carbs and 20 % protein as a general guideline. Again, that can all vary, but that's just kind of a baseline to start with. And in talking about individuality and the variations here, using how you feel and what you have tastes for and cravings for is all really helpful. Yeah, it's necessary.

And that experimentation is a huge part of this and figuring out what works for you. Because as you were saying, it can depend on activity level. You mentioned somebody being sedentary and that they might eat less carbs. But the other thing too is if you're sedentary, you're maybe more likely using your brain a lot more. And of course, our brain is our largest consumer of carbohydrates, unless you're working out a lot, in which case your muscles might be coming up there. yeah, so that might be a reason why actually you would want to eat more carbohydrates. So yeah, all of this is very individual, but as a whole, think those are solid recommendations. I know you mentioned coconut oil. just briefly to touch on that, a large portion of the fats in coconut oil are medium and shorter chain fats, as opposed to the longer chain fats that are found in most other fat sources, most of the ones we were talking about. And so those medium and shorter chain fats are, they end up being used more as a fuel and more like glucose or carbohydrate rather than like fat.

Jay
And the physiology, I mean, the basics of it is a lot of it has to do with that FADH2 to NADH ratio we talked about earlier, where the shorter the chain of fats, the lower the FADH2 to NADH ratio is. So that ratio is lowest with glucose, but then it increases as the chains become longer, which means that as the chains become longer, they cause even slower respiration, whereas when they're shorter, the respiration's at least a little bit faster.

So there's a long way of saying that coconut oil for the most part is used more like a carbohydrate and so it doesn't satisfy a lot of those needs for fat that we have. Yeah and you'll find that you a lot of people like to come to the Pete's Beer or anything like that they will saturate it with a little bit of coconut oil and then people that I've talked to or that I've like had discussions about with diet and they've tried to use coconut oil it essentially it's more like adding carbohydrate to the diet.

And then they find they don't last between meals and that they still have the adrenaline response or they still have the sympathetic response because they don't have enough long chain fatty acids because the coconut oil doesn't really cut it. And then they also find that they don't get a strong and androgenic effect. And I've also found that I prefer the longer chain fatty acids for that androgenic effect. I've also found that the coconut oil doesn't give me that muscle hardness or that fullness muscles as it goes to the endogenic effect as having something like a butter or a beef tallow or anything like that. So yeah, it's helpful to mention those types of fats. We mentioned types of protein, types of carbs. We talked a lot about in the gut section and we'll talk about more in the future. Just as a baseline for fats. Oh yeah, you did say avoiding Pufa and yeah, beef tallow and butter, animal product fat that's low Pufa. Those are all good options.

Cocoa butter and chocolate are also good options. You don't know that this is the chocolate cocoa butter is usually pretty good And other dairy fats too if you do all the dairy. Yeah, exactly. the one thing I want to say is When you do a bad coconut oil to your diet if you have long chain fats if you do have like 20 grams of Butter in a meal you can add 10 grams of coconut oil on top and it shouldn't give you the nausea and the like digestive symptoms

Jay
like adding more long chain fast food. So I personally, I've had 30 grams of fat in a meal, added 10 grams of coconut oil on top and I don't have the nausea or any type of issue with it. just, the one thing does, it does, it does make me lean out very fast. That's something that I've noticed about it. Interesting point. Yeah. Cool. All right. Is there anything else you want to touch on? I think we covered a decent amount today. Awesome. Yeah, I think so too. We'll leave it there.

All right, I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. One thing that we didn't mention that I did want to touch on has to do with one of the roles of fats in relation to our hormones. So we talked about the fact that fats act as precursors for the reproductive hormones and that that's one of their important uses outside of being a fuel. But there's also research showing that the fats themselves have direct hormone-like effects. So

It's been shown that certain types of saturated fats can actually increase the production of different reproductive hormones and have direct anti-inflammatory properties. And then also outside of the hormonal effects, they also play an important role in our immune system and their antimicrobial and they help to clear out pathogens or harmful microbes. So I just thought those were a few important things to mention and I will be linking to studies regarding those different properties of fats in the show notes. You can find those show notes at jfeldmanwellness.com slash podcast. And if you did enjoy today's episode, please leave a review or a like wherever you're listening. It really makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people. To find out more about my work, head over to jfeldmanwellness.com and for Mike, head over to sapiensystems.com. And if you're dealing with any sorts of low energy issues, whether that's fatigue or brain fog or weight gain or any sort of chronic health conditions, whether that's diabetes or heart disease or autoimmune issues, head over to jfelvinwellness.com/energy and sign up for a free mini course on energy balance where I'll walk you through the things that you can do to support energy production and which things to avoid that will inhibit energy production so that you can maximize your cellular energy and get your health back.

Jay
Thank you guys so much for listening today and I will see you in the next episode.