Jay Feldman 0:12
Welcome to Episode 53, of the energy balance podcast, where we teach you how to live without constant hunger and cravings, fatigue, brain fog, poor sleep and other low energy symptoms by maximizing your cellular energy. I'm Jay Feldman. I'm a health coach and independent health researcher, and joining me again today is my good friend Mike Fave. Mike and I have been studying health and nutrition together for a long time now, and Mike also draws on his experiences from working within the healthcare industry. Today's episode is part five of our series on men's Hormonal Health, where we've been discussing how to improve male Hormonal Health from the bioenergetic view. And in parts one through four, we discussed various aspects of nutrition, exercise, sleep, stress and supplements in regard to this bioenergetic view of men's Hormonal Health. And we had just left off in part four, discussing the main supplements that we want to avoid when it comes to this context. And in Part Five, today, we'll be talking more specifically about the supplements that we want to use to boost testosterone and increased metabolism in particular, we'll be talking about which protein powders are ideal and when it's best to use them. We'll also discuss which supplements can help to boost testosterone, increase muscle mass and raise our metabolism. We'll also talk about whether hormonal tests are necessary or helpful when it comes to improving Hormonal Health, and when it makes sense to supplement with hormones and factors to consider when doing so. If this is your first time listening to the energy balance podcast, then after listening through today's episode, I'd highly recommend you go back and listen to episodes one through seven, where we took some time to build a foundation as far as the bioenergetic view of health is concerned. To check out the show notes for today's episode. You can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast where I'll be linking to the studies and articles and anything else that we discuss or reference throughout today's episode. And if you are struggling with any of the hormonal symptoms that we've been discussing throughout this men's Hormonal Health Series, whether that's low libido, or trouble putting on muscle mass, or trouble losing body fat, or any other reproductive or hormone related symptoms. And if you're maybe not sure where to begin, where to jump in after listening through the first few episodes of the series, or you're unsure how to apply this information, or maybe you have started implementing some of these ideas, but you aren't sure where to go next, or you've hit some obstacles in the road, then head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/call, where you can sign up for a free call with me, where I'd be happy to help offer some suggestions and discuss your situation with you, so that you can improve your Hormonal Health. So again, to sign up for that free call, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/call, and if you are dealing with any of these hormone related symptoms or any other low energy symptoms, whether that's chronic cravings and hunger, fatigue, chronic pain, digestive symptoms like inflammation or bloating or brain fog or poor sleep, or any other symptoms or chronic health conditions. Then head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy where you can sign up for a free energy balance mini course, where I'll explain how these different symptoms and conditions really come down to a lack of energy, and I'll also walk you through the main things that you can do from a diet and lifestyle perspective to improve your cellular energy and therefore resolve these symptoms and conditions. So to sign up for that free energy balance mini course, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, and with that, let's get started.

So to circle back to some other supplements that are used pretty frequently and that we might want to reconsider, protein powders you had kind of alluded to these earlier, but protein powders would definitely be, you know, a category here, or something that falls into that category where, I mean, there's a few different uses here. Some are just used as, like, post workout shakes. They also have like, the before bed shakes. And then some people are just using, like, protein powder shakes throughout the day. And there's a few issues here. I mean, first, just considering the ingredients where getting, like, whatever the protein powder is, you talked about how processed they are, and because of that, they're going to have a lot less nutrition available, for the most part, much less on the vitamins and minerals and other compounds that can be in these foods that can be beneficial. So that's kind of part one is, if you're getting a lot of your protein from those sources, like these powders, as opposed to from, you know, dairy, seafood, meat, then you're missing out on a lot of other nutrients and other beneficial like macronutrients too, like not just vitamins and minerals, but you're missing out on good quality fats and potentially carbs too. In the case of dairy. That have a lot of good effects. So the they are convenient, and so maybe we'll talk about a couple of the protein powders that might be best. But in general, there, they don't really offer a benefit over whole food protein, other than that convenience and the con. The other thing too is that the time, you know, people get really obsessed with the timing, but in reality, the timing doesn't matter too much, as long as you're eating regularly throughout the day, getting enough protein overall. And, you know, not waiting too long after working out to eat, which I think most people wouldn't naturally anyway, because most people are pretty hungry when they're done working out. So considering that, you don't need to force the protein in this particular window, you know, it doesn't have to be within 30 minutes necessarily. It doesn't have to be as you're walking out of the gym, considering that. I mean, it just makes more sense in most cases to have have real food, and there becomes less of a need for the protein from the convenience standpoint. But from that convenience standpoint, I would say that there are some protein powders that are better than others. We talk a lot about collagen protein powder being beneficial, and it is as a convenient protein source, but it's not gonna have the same like anabolic protein effects as some other protein powders due to the type of amino acids in there. They have a lot of those anti inflammatory amino acids, but those aren't as growth focused. So as far as the protein powders, that would be okay outside of collagen you could look into, you know, I guess I would probably lean towards whey, or maybe a combination of whey and casein. I, as you mentioned, I would probably stay away from the plant protein powders, which I remember when I was first looking into getting protein powders, when I was first starting to work out, I got so, I mean, I didn't have any real understanding of it. I was just reading, like blogs, on blogs or articles about which protein powder is best, and everyone said something different. And I remember, I really got caught up on hemp protein. Like that was going to be the protein powder I got. And I went and talked with some personal trainer, and he was like, just, just get whey like, there's just use whey protein. Like this doesn't matter. Just use whey protein. And, I mean, I think he was really, I mean, he was, it was probably the best thing it could have been said there, because those plant protein powders tend not to be very bioavailable. They tend not to have favorable amino acid profiles for muscle growth, and they tend to come with potential anti nutrients and other problems there. So if you were looking for protein powder, I'd probably lean towards like a very good quality way not to, you know, there's such a focus on the isolation of it, but, and so, like, a whey protein isolate is kind of like the most isolated, or more most concentrated, but there's also a whey protein concentrate, which is like a lower percentage of protein, and I would actually say probably, like a really high quality, ideal grass fed or something, whey protein concentrate is probably better. It's a little bit less processed than isolate, and so you've less, most likely less, denaturing of the proteins and some other components in there that are beneficial outside of the protein itself. So that would probably be my go to if in certain cases, somebody felt like it was necessary from the convenience side, as like a post workout type thing or anabolic type protein drink. But I'd see so few instances where it's really necessary, or would make sense.

Mike 8:04
Yeah. And, I mean, I pretty much said, or before, like, my my thoughts on it, I think, and I agree, I think a good quality whey protein for the sake of, like, a post workout insulin spike because of the amino acid profile, would be something that's good. And then as far as, like, a casein protein or something like that, which is the other option here, I would say, for and people, usually, or bodybuilders or fitness people tend to take casein at night because it's slowly digesting. My preference would be something like, I don't know, yogurt or cheese or something along those lines, rather than a protein powder, right? Because you have the whole food there you get with a cheese or yogurt. If it's like, a full fat one, you have the fat there, which also can extend digestion. And then it's like, it's not necessarily like, I think overall, just It's better. It's not just the isolated casein protein, right? There's a bunch of other vitamins, minerals, nutrients. There may be a little there may be a little way in there, there's the fat, and then whatever else came from the the fermentation or whatever. So I think, overall, I would think that a yogurt or a cheese would be better at night than just taking, like an isolated casein protein and that that in this, this is all in the context of, if you're able to actually tolerate dairy effectively, right, like you don't have an allergy or intolerance, then, yeah, you can do, like, some, I don't know, a yogurt with honey and some fruit, or some cheese and some fruit, and then, like, a glass of juice or cheese and dried fruit. I think those are all great options. And again, this is usually taken before bed at night, because it takes a while to digest the pre the fat in the cheese or the yogurt will slow down digestion a little bit. And then, and not in a bad way, just it just slows it down because of the processing of the fat, but then also the the protein, the casein itself, sort of coagulates. Is in the stomach, and then it's slowly absorbed. So those would be my those would be my preferences over the casein protein. And as far as way, as you said, it just a quality whey protein.

Jay Feldman 10:11
Yeah, yeah. I'll link back to the episode where we talked a little bit more in detail about the different types of dairy because I think it's helpful here, especially to consider when you're talking about the casein the casein the a one versus a two situation, where, for people who might be a little more sensitive to that, a one protein, which is going to be part of the casein protein, you're you end up with more of that, like of these casomorphins, and this, like opioid type effect, which is part of the reason why it can be slowing too, and why it can be slow digesting, and it's less ideal from that perspective, too. So some people might have issues with most casein because of that, if it is a one, but you could, as you said, if you're getting Whole Foods, you can do like a goat milk yogurt or cheese, or sheep's milk cheese or something like that. That would or just a high quality, high quality, a two dairy, you know, cheese or yogurt or something that would not have the A one casein. So it'd be something to consider too.

Mike 11:07
Yeah. So yeah, you're right, exactly. And we did talk about that before, so I'm not gonna elaborate on anything there.

Jay Feldman 11:14
Yeah, one other thing to consider, though, you mentioned, like the insulin spiking effects of whey, which I think is really helpful to to point out, which is like that that's kind of this anabolic effect that is being looked for, where it the protein stimulates the release of insulin to help get those amino acids that break down like building blocks of the protein into the muscles. But that also means that it's really important to make sure you're getting carbohydrates if you're having these sorts of proteins, because otherwise you will be dropping, dropping your blood sugar and driving stress hormones, which isn't helpful from the muscle building standpoint, or Hormonal Health, or any health standpoint. So especially if you're having something that you're intentionally trying to drive an increase in insulin with, in this kind of semi reductionist view, you'd want to make sure you're getting carbs with it. But just even in general, anytime you're getting protein, like zooming out, less reductionist of just trying to drive amino acids into the muscle, just big picture. Anytime you're having protein, it will stimulate insulin release and it will cause a drop in blood sugar, unless you have mold, yeah, it will stimulate insulin regardless, but it'll cause a drop in blood sugar if you're not getting enough carbs with it. So that would be a key point there.

Mike 12:21
Yeah. And it depends on the amount of stimulation, depends on the protein, right? So and the amount, yeah, but the proteins higher in the BCAAs will tend to have more of an insulin genic response than, say, your your collagen protein, which doesn't have a lot of BCAAs in it. So that that's just something to keep in mind. And so the just, sort of tangential would just so people know, the two proteins that have, like a very insulin genetic effect and, like a pretty potent blood sugar dropping effect, can be, like egg white proteins, and then also the whey protein. So those, and those are, that's sort of why it's focused on so much in the bodybuilding spheres, egg whites and whey because they can, they have such a strong insulin genetic effect, and taking them with carbs, you basically can push the amino acids and carbohydrates or sugars into the muscle. And that, that's technically the whole idea. The reason to do it after workout is because you just stimulated the muscle, so it's going to want to be replacing glycogen and repairing whatever damage and whatnot. So that's literally the whole theory behind it, and that's why whey is used. That's why eggs are like, 12 egg whites are eaten for breakfast, whatever it is, yeah. So that's pretty much where we're at.

Jay Feldman 13:31
Which is another one. Just while we're on the topic, just talking, just mentioning the egg whites, real quick, there's a ton of benefits to the yolks there, and there are some potential drawbacks with just having the whites so and we've talked about why you don't need to be concerned about the cholesterol and the yolks and all of that in previous episodes, so I'll link to those. But just something to consider too, is a not wanting to just, like, there's, there's like, there's no need, basically, or I can't see a situation where it makes sense to have just a ton of egg whites, or there's very, you know, in general, I would say that's not ideal. So just something I've considered, no, yeah, it's not a recommendation, yeah, yeah, yeah. It can deplete biotin and, and, well, that's raw

Mike 14:11
but, yeah, that's, that's, that's not a recommendation to go slam egg whites, um, or eat a whole bunch of raw egg whites. It's just this, the rationale behind these things. And, you know, it's, I don't think it's 100% like, I think eggs are great, but I don't think you need to, like, only two egg yolks and then, like, 20 egg whites is or 12 egg whites, or however many, ridiculous, whatever the number is. I don't think it's like, it's necessary. So, right?

Jay Feldman 14:38
So before we talk about some of the supplements that are really helpful for improving Hormonal Health and everything that comes with that, body composition wise, and hormone or libido wise, everything else reproductive related, there's one other supplement that's used very commonly, or it's very popular, you know, not only for men's hormone. Health, but just in general, but it's it's one of those that's always included with the like, when they have, like, those supplement packages with a bunch of different pills in there, they always include fish oil. And so it's just worth mentioning that when we've talked about this so many times, but fish oil is not ideal long term. It has some short term anti inflammatory effects, which are where these ideas come from, that it has all these benefits, but there's a lot of research now showing that it does not have a lot of the benefits that you know it's said to have had, as far as heart heart disease goes, and all these other conditions and issues. And it does cause a lot of problems long term. And we've talked about how it has immunosuppressive effects, and that's kind of the mechanism, that it has some anti inflammatory effects. There's some others too. But in the long term, fish oil is a really good way to decrease your ability to produce energy and increase the production of reactive oxygen species, which is basically along the lines of oxidative stress. So just in general, definitely not something that's helpful for increasing the reproductive hormones. And instead, would, you know, probably do the opposite long term.

Mike 16:09
Yeah. I mean, in the at the end of the day, I don't think even I don't think taking a fish oil supplement is the ideal way to go, even if you were going to do it. And based on the recommendations that we already gave above for diet, you'd pretty much be covered if you're even worried about it, with just eating nutrient dense seafood that we discussed. So the whole fish oil thing is like, I just don't see, I don't see the point in taking a supplement for it. I know a lot of a lot of doctors are prescribing it now, there's like, a prescription from from the pharma companies forward, for inflammation and brain damage and things like that and things like that. I don't think it's necessarily so helpful in those areas. And I think if you're going to even worry about it, then I would just get it from fish anyway. But ideally, we're, I don't think that's something that we're I would prioritize at all. You know? I would just prioritize and keeping total PUFA low in general,

Jay Feldman 17:01
yeah. I mean, I would prioritize avoiding avoiding omega threes, if anything, not to such an insane extent, because, as you were saying, even in like the good quality, low fat seafood, you're going to be getting some amount of omega threes into good quality, even fatty meat and dairy, you're going to get some amount of Omega three so you're getting some small amounts in there. But other than that, I would try to avoid things that have a lot of omega threes, like fatty fish, like salmon or walnuts, for example, which have...

Mike 17:28
Flaxseed oil, which is a pretty big one too. Yeah, I think I remember someone was telling me about flaxseed oil, and they're, they're like, Yeah, I have it. Like it's in this black container and it's refrigerated. And it's like, they the company, fills it with nitrogen so that there's no oxygen there to cause, like, oxidative damage to the flaxseed oil. And I was like, I was like, and then you ingest it, like, you're going from, like, refrigerated, no oxygen present, to then running it through your GI tract. I mean, wet at 98.6 degrees, and whatever oxidation, oxidative processes occur in the digestive track and metabolically and whatnot, I don't know. I just didn't seem like a good idea to me. And that's why, that's why I save anyone like I'm not a fan of going and trying to see, seek out omega threes, and take all these omega threes and whatnot, whether it's from alpha linoleic acid, which is your plant omega threes, or whether it's from EPA or DHA, which is the animal omega threes, I just the my whole opinion on is like, just eat quality food, right? Quality, nutrient dense food. That's your the seafood we talked about, that's the dairy. That's if you tolerate dairy, or like the grass fed ruminant meats, and you pretty much cover your bases on all those areas, like it doesn't even, and that's not even to say that we want, that we're trying to cover those bases. But the point is, is that, like, there's not even, there's not even an argument there. It's like, even if you wanted to do it like, you probably be reaching it just fine, if you focused on those nutrient dense, high quality animal foods.

Jay Feldman 19:06
Yeah, yeah, yep. I don't think there's anything else that I want to add there.

Mike 19:12
The flax thing just blows me away every time. Right? It's just like, all these methods to protect it, and then it's like, then you're just gonna throw it's like, I'm trying to protect it now I'm going to throw it in the fire.

Jay Feldman 19:21
Right, right, yeah. And you had mentioned all the things going on in our digestive processes, and then, of course, you have the absorption and everything that else is that's going on internally. There's a lot of opportunities for it to get oxidized, yeah. So moving on to some supplements that are beneficial, that might, you know, somebody might want to consider when they're trying to improve their Hormonal Health, beyond using nutrition and lifestyle, which, as we've talked about, is really the key, right? I mean, we kind of went into detail about how we want to be focusing on the big picture, and why would you need to supplement and all of that. But of course, there is a place for them as just ways to move things to. Long, either to replace certain maybe nutrient deficiencies, if you're having trouble getting certain foods into your diet, or just to even if you're doing the quote, unquote right things, to further the process along a little faster. So along those lines, I mean, one of the groups of supplements that I think is worth noting for sure is the fat soluble vitamins. So that's vitamins A, D, E and K. And when you look at these vitamins in terms of almost any aspect of health, but especially when you're looking at hormones, they're really effective at improving our ability to produce the reproductive hormones, and I shouldn't even say ability. They increase the production of these hormones, because they act as in many ways as those signaling compounds, that things are much better. And so all of these, you know, they all play such integral roles in various parts of the hormonal cascade. So vitamin A, for example, is really important for that conversion from cholesterol to pregnenolone, which is the kind of very top of all the steroid hormones. So if you want to be increasing testosterone, you're gonna have to start with pregnant alone. So vitamin A is is crucial for that. There's also a lot of really interesting research looking at the effects of vitamins D, E and K, specifically on testosterone production and various other aspects of of Hormonal Health. So those would be things to consider if either you're not able to get enough in your diet, or sometimes to add on in addition to your diet, as long as they're kind of balanced, well, you wouldn't want to be taking in, for example, excessive amounts of vitamin A, especially if your thyroid function isn't great, because you can kind of have a buildup of vitamin A, and that can actually signal stress. So you definitely want to be careful when using these things, making sure that they're they're they're well balanced. But in that proper balance, they can all have a lot of benefits.

Mike 21:46
Yeah. And I think the important point for to for using these is that they are synergistic, and that they do work together, particularly vitamins A, D and K, in combination with calcium and magnesium, they're, they're extremely important to go together. I mean, even in the most recent, like in the, I guess, in the whole Pete's beers, this anti vitamin D stuff going around now, or vitamin D as like immunosuppressive, I think, I think that you have to put vitamin D in context, and you have to put it in context of the in combination with these other fat soluble vitamins. And then even beyond that, just specifically for vitamin D, there's like hunt. There's a if you if anybody wants to see any of the benefits of vitamin D, there's a website. It's called the vitamin D wiki, and it has like, endless amounts of studies just going over the use of vitamin D and all these different scenarios. So and it has a whole bunch of benefits if you're worried about a supplement and you can get it from the sun, or if you're worried about a supplement and you live in a cold area, then you can use a like a UVB lamp. And if you can bind a UVB lamp with a red light, you can help protect from some of the negative from the negative effects of the ultraviolet radiation. So all of them are pretty poem They not only do they signal like what you said as like a good state, but they also are co factors. And a lot of these processes and a lot of these processes in the body, especially sterito Genesis, are dependent upon having adequate amounts. And then, in the case of vitamin E, vitamin E actually protects against damage from other factors, like in excess of omega six or an x it protects the stomach, to some extent, from an excess of omega six or an excess of Omega three. So it's really important to number this is like, you want to make sure that you're getting all your adequate bad soluble vitamins. And you want to make sure you're getting adequate minerals with them, calcium and magnesium. And you can get that from they can be achieved from the diet, with the exception of vitamin D and but you can also supplement them in, you know, sensible quantities, I guess. You know you don't have to take ridiculous amounts. Like, there's some pretty, I know there's studies on the forum, or there's studies here and there of using, like, really high doses of vitamin K, but even, like, just to keep in mind, for people, one milligram of vitamin MK vitamin k2, MK four is like a, like, a ridiculous amount of what would be normally consumed in a diet. So, yeah, just, I think they're all important. I think that they're synergistic, and I think that it they have multiple beneficial functions. And it's not to not to ignore that they all work together.

Jay Feldman 24:23
Yep, and just real quick, also to mention foods that are generally rich in these things. I mean, for the most part, to be looking at liver as that main source of vitamin A, and then for vitamin K and E, you're finding those basically anytime you're finding healthy fats, whether that's dairy or beef or, you know, other ruminant animals or anything like that.

Mike 24:43
Yeah. Or, like you're you can have some of the plant fats are are good for vitamin E that would be like your your olive oil or your but something to keep in mind with any, like, any of the nuts or any of the vegetable oils that say they have a high vitamin E content. And the vitamin E content is canceled out by the polyunsaturated fat content. So that's just something important to keep in mind. You can have your sunflower oral with 150% of your vitamin E, but if it's you know, comes with 20 or 30 grams of PUFA, particularly from omega six. The Omega six has a negative effect on that vitamin E content. They cancel each other out. And then even the Omega six itself has a override. Overrides to an extent, I guess it's the easiest way to put it. The positive effects of the vitamin E. Vitamin E is not completely able to protect against it.

Jay Feldman 25:35
Yeah, yeah. Another aspect of of these fat soluble vitamins, and some of the other things we'll be talking about as well, is improving liver health, which we talked about is, is basically the main area where we're going to be detoxing estrogen through so just another reason why, why we want to make sure that we're getting enough of these vitamins to support liver health.

Mike 25:56
Yep. And then The liver also, besides detoxing estrogen, is basically, is like, the system that says, like, Hey, we got enough substrate on board, or we have enough energy on board, right? It's sort of the regulator of all blood sugar, which is pretty important for making sure that androgens and sex hormones and your your adrenal glands or your stress Cascades are not super high. The liver basically is signaling all that and then breaking down excess stress hormones and sets basically spitting them out through the either the urine or the bile acids. I think for estrogen, it's mainly through the bile acids of the stool.

Jay Feldman 26:35
Yep, absolutely, and, and I think we might have mentioned this in the previous episode where we were talking about how to decrease estrogen, but anything that's going to support liver health will help to do that. So coffee and caffeine would be another one, another one. There would be BCAAs, which are not only helpful for supporting liver health, but are also helpful for supporting protein synthesis, which is, of course, helpful for building muscle, which is something we've been talking about as well. So that's another area that you could supplement if you want to supplement with BCAAs, especially if you're having trouble getting solid protein in due to convenience or availability or something. Yeah, they don't tend to be something that I recommend often, just because I think if you're eating good quality food, you should be able to get enough of enough protein and enough of those amino acids. But it is an area that can be helpful to supplement.

Mike 27:26
Yeah, BCA is. It's extremely easy to get enough BCAAs, and that's just from your that's from steak, that's from chicken, that's from fish, that's from what any type of animal source of protein, eggs. The only one that's really kind of limited on that is the is the collagen protein, right? That doesn't really have much branch chain amino acids. So it's pretty important to get enough protein for the liver. The other thing is, besides BCAAs, there's other amino acids that are pretty potent for liver health and that have also have a positive effect on androgens, and that's or sex hormones in general. And also they has a positive effect on absorption and utilization of fat soluble vitamins, and it's taurine and glycine. So those two amino acids are also pretty powerful and just, just so people get a sense of like, these amino acids have been used like in pharmacologically. For example, BCAs have been used in like in patients with liver failure or with cirrhosis of the liver to help basically regenerate it. And then the other thing that's important in this is adequate B vitamins, and adequate there's other amino acids that are helpful for donating methyl groups for methylation in the liver to process different foods like fats. So there's choline and methionine and cysteine, which they in basically from the peat perspective, or from some and some of the research as well, they can have some anti metabolic or anti life extension components. That's what they showed in some of the rat studies and the there's some isolated studies showing negative effects on the thyroid from from specifically the methionine and cysteine. But as far as liver health goes, specifically, adequate amounts of all these amino acids are pretty important for your liver to function appropriately. So I think at least on my end, I tend to prefer that people eat adequate protein and don't do the whole restriction thing for protein, for life span extension or anything like that, especially because we haven't seen it in humans. Kind of only seen it in in the rodent studies, and we've also, we've also talked about some of the reasons why those some of the life like life extension by caloric restriction and whatnot, isn't necessarily an ideal model.

Jay Feldman 29:46
Right. And so I'll link back to those aging you know, we did a couple episodes talking in detail about aging and and extending lifespan, and a lot of the problems with what's recommended. But another thing that's been found is that glycine, supplementing glycine. It mimics the effects of restricting methionine. So another way of thinking about that is just when you're having excess methionine, that's really when you're seeing these problems. And you don't have to just restrict the methionine, as long as you're balancing it with those protective amino acids, namely glycine and proline and hydroxyproline, and that would be the main three, which are all super high in collagen. They're high in collagen. And any time that you're getting meat that has the connective tissue, you're going to be getting a little bit of all of those. You're going to get some of those, you know, some of the methionine, some of the branched chain amino acids, but also the the anti inflammatory amino acids as well. So that would be like, yeah, like any meat that has the bone in it, or that's tends to be kind of tough, and you have to cook low and slow so that it gets really tender. Those are ones that have more of that connective tissue. So a lot of like the roasts and shanks and ribs that both have the bone and are tough can be those are really good sources of the collagen protein, if you're not looking to supplement with collagen, which I would recommend getting it from food first. But there's also a place for supplementing there too. Yep. Moving on to another supplement that's especially popular in the fitness industry, which is creatine. And I do think that there are quite a few benefits to using creatine, but not necessarily in the way that it's thought of per se. I mean, it depends on what you know, in what way people are thinking that it's helpful. So creatine is basically a major part of the creatine phosphate system, which is the, basically the system that's used to produce energy in the most immediate needs and like, the highest intensity exercise for muscle contraction specifically, right, right? So, like, if you're doing a sprint or something for the first several seconds, you're mainly relying on energy from that creatine phosphate system. And basically all it is is like a ATP, kind of recycling system, where the creatine is like donating phosphate groups in the short term as long as it can, and then you have to use glycolysis and on from there. So because of that, creatine can help with that kind of short term performance if somebody is not getting enough creatine. So that's that is a use for it, but I don't think that that's really as relevant to supporting metabolism. In the big picture, I don't think that taking creatine is going to help in that way, to support energy production or metabolism or body composition, but it does happen to have a lot of other more broad, general effects, just very general, anti inflammatory effects, protection against fatty liver, protection against cancer, pro dopamine effects, IQ raising effects, yeah. And along with that, too is a lot of, like, gut protection and repair as well. So those would be more of the reasons why I'd be looking at using creatine is it just seems to have a lot of these, much like broader, bigger picture benefits, yeah.

Mike 32:59
The only issue creating is some, for some people, can irritate your intestines, or it can, if you don't absorb all of it has, like an osmotic effect in the intestine. So it can give you the runs a little bit so and cause swelling sometimes. Yeah, yeah. It can make you hold a little water as well. But it's not like an estrogenic type of water. It's basically, from what I understand, it's because you're loading up your muscles with an excessive amount, or an increased amount of creatine, and it tends to move water with it.

Jay Feldman 33:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, I mean, I should say also, like, it does seem to have a lot of these benefits, but it isn't something that I tend to recommend for somebody looking for those benefits, there's, I think, a lot of other better ways to achieve those things, but...

Mike 33:45
It's kind of like a tangential supplement. I mean, it could be hell it's not. There's no doubt that it's helpful for performance and it's helpful for muscle building and all that type of stuff. But as far as increasing energy and like, it does have some beneficial effects for energy metabolism. I mean, don't get us wrong, there's a ton of beneficial effects, but it's not a primary focus. Especially if you're already eating a decent amount of meat, you're not going to be worried about having, like, a deficiency of creatine, or not getting enough creatine. Or some people, if they're eating especially a lot of red meat, then their creatine levels might actually be on the decent side overall, and they might they find, they might find that they don't respond as strongly as other people do to the supplement, but overall, sort of tangential to making sure that all the other systems are working well, and that's making sure that the cell is producing energy at its at the cellular level, that's what we want. We want the mitochondria, and we want the electron transport chain to function well. And then at the liver level, we want to make sure that the liver has all the components that it needs to be able to detoxify everything that it has and also regulate blood sugar appropriately. And then at the testicular level, we also want to make sure we have all the when you have adequate cholesterol, we have all the precursors to process that cholesterol and. To the sex steroids, and then we also don't have any inhibiting factors like an excessive amount of unsaturated fatty acids in the testicular structure and pairing the production of of testosterone and the androgens overall. So it's kind of those. Those are the key as far as specifically related to androgen production. Those are the key areas to really focus on what's going on in a cell, what's going on at the liver, what's going on in the testicles. But as as an extra or an extension of that is, like, if your gut health is poor and whatnot, then you're obviously gonna have issues at the liver. So it starts to when you start to put all the pieces together, it's still really the whole system. But these are, like, all the specific strategies that target these different areas of in semi reductionistic, but also reductionism with of the pathway within the overall picture. So that's, that's kind of where we're hitting it at from here. You want to make sure to deliver and deliver gut working well, what's going on at the testicles is, you know, they have everything that they need, and not being impaired, and then making sure that the body overall to energetic stages is doing pretty great. And I think we see that in some of the other spheres, right where, like other, I guess, health spheres, or health areas like paleo or some of these other areas where people want to, they want to make sure they have these extremely nutrient dense diets, and they hit all these targets, and then they want to be low carb. It's like you make sure that the mitochondria and the electron transport chain has everything that it needs, and the testicles have everything that it needs, and then the liver has everything that it needs, except for the glucose or AND and OR fructose to drive metabolism appropriately. It's like your car is completely decked out, and as all the components that it needs is brand new. It's running great. And then you had, don't have any gas, right?

Jay Feldman 36:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's some, some really interesting research, I mean, just talking about the, you know, we always talk about how important energy is from these things, but there is, as you're talking about, research showing that actually that like the levels of ATP in the testicles and the efficiency of mitochondrial respiration and the function of the electron transport chain are all determining factors of steroid production there. So yeah, exactly. It's exactly what you're saying. And again, it's this relatively complex, holistic system, where there's a lot of factors that can affect mitochondrial respiration and the production of energy, and that's why we're, you know, been talking all, you know, through all of these things over the last several episodes. But yeah, it's always helpful to kind of come back to that and recognize that at every piece of this, of these kind of chains that we're breaking down, it does come back to energy.

Mike 37:42
Yeah. And then the other thing too is, even if you're producing adequate amounts of testosterone, if you're and your body state is not correct, or you're not your cells, or the rest of your body isn't able to adequately respond to the testosterone, that state will dictate its metabolism, and that's why. And we talked about this a little bit, I think, in previous episodes, but that's why it's so important to not just throw testosterone into the system right and then right, and then where it be like, I I get my testosterone injection, but now I'm converting heavily to estrogen. It's like, Well, did you look at your cortisol levels? Are you? You know, I want to take excess testoster. I want to take exogenous testosterone because my testosterone is low, but I'm on a carnivore keto diet, and my cortisol levels are high, and your cortisol up regulate your aromatase and and it's because you don't have you're essentially relying on cortisol to to function, to produce enough glucose for your body to function. So it's all that becomes important, and it's not just, and that's why, like, for example, when I think, if you and I ever recommend labs to somebody, we never just look at testosterone and estrogen and then and sex hormone binding globulin, which is like three big labs that are looked at in, I guess, the testosterone replacement therapy realm. It's like every a lot of things just focus purely on that. We need to see what's going on with cortisol, we need to see what's going on with prolactin. We need to see what's going on with vitamin D and parathyroid hormone. We need to see what's going on with thyroid and a cholesterol panel. We want to see all of those things, because it gives you a huge window into what's going on. And then even further than that, I mean, if, if all those are kind of out of whack, and things aren't adjusting the right way, then you then we'll start looking at, well, what's going on in the gut, what's going on with the liver, what's going on with micronutrients. There's, there's a whole host of things to really dig into to see what, what's missing in that picture. But at the end of the day, you can get really in depth and all that, and you can look at all that stuff, but at the end of the day, the adjustments that that I think both you and I would recommend that anybody makes are still doing these foundational aspects. It would still be getting the diet right, getting sleep right, getting stress levels right, perhaps as. In necessary supplements or focused supplements, and going from there. So it's still like, no matter how in depth you get with your understanding and testing and all that, it still comes down to the same basic things, right.

Jay Feldman 40:14
Yeah, yeah. And as you're kind of alluding to as well, when looking at something like labs, we don't want to just treat any particular lab marker, right? But we also don't want to just treat labs overall. You don't always need labs to like, if somebody is either taking testosterone and having whatever symptoms, or they're not and they're having these symptoms, it doesn't take labs to have some idea of what's going on.

Mike 40:38
There's, there's so many other indicators if that, if you tap into what's going on subjectively, you can get a sense of what's right and what's wrong. Yeah, so I was thinking like pulse and temp, or libido or whatever those can those give you, like, a broader insight into the picture than just looking at one momentary lab in time, because it can be so affected by so many different things. But that's also why, if you're going to do labs, you're going to treat by anything like that, and it's sort of, you need the whole picture, and you probably need multiple snapshots. Unfortunately, it's expensive, and that's why I think both you and I prefer to look at what's going on subjectively and try and make the adjustment from there, because it's maybe a little bit less expensive. And sometimes it's easier, because you just like, if your subjective markers are tracking in the right way, that's what you want, right? You don't want to just get Okay, your labs are good, but you still feel like crap. It's like, well, that doesn't help, because you still feel like crap, and that, even if your labs are pristine, if you're not feeling well, like, who wants to live like that? You don't walk around like, Oh, my labs.

Jay Feldman 41:41
Yeah, my labs hurt right now.

Mike 41:43
My labs are so good right now. But I feel like, Absolutely, but my labs are good, right, right. Look at my profile. My test is XYZ, yeah.

Jay Feldman 41:54
And this reminds me of, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of with, like social media, and how are things moving to online? There's so many, like, funny jokes about, I don't know there's, there's like, a show about this where you have people walking around and they're, like, showing a picture of themselves on their phone, and they're like, look at how hot I am, right? Yeah, but it's like, they're right in front of you, and they don't look like in the picture. But, yeah. Anyway, the Yeah, so, so that's definitely helpful. And also, I mean, how many times have you seen like a low TSH or lowish TSH? But somebody has every hypothyroid symptom, and their temperatures are, you know, in the 90 sixes or 97 or something like that? So yeah. And again, it's obviously, it's because part of this too doesn't only come down to TSH, and we also know that stress is going to decrease, TSH, and so you have to consider it all in context. But yeah, there's a lot of things that can be used to be on labs to work with. And then there are, it is helpful to have that kind of objective measure, whether that's temperature and pulse or labs or, you know, both, as kind of objective snapshots. That can be helpful to put the put the pieces together.

Mike 43:01
Yeah, it's a whole picture, right? I'd never just get labs like, I want somebody to give me the full rundown of their symptoms and a full rundown of, you know, what's their sleep, what's their diet? Because that's those are all the things that are adjust these factors, like labs are abstractions of that. They're extractions, or they're indicators of what you're doing in your life, or what you've gone through in your life for whatever period of time, right? So that's all that it is. And I mean, it's helpful to take a look, but you need the whole picture.

Jay Feldman 43:30
Yeah, yep. And so in talking about some of the hormones we were referencing, whether it's testosterone or otherwise, I do think it's worth talking at least a little bit about some of the specifics. The specifics. As far as, at least what we think would be a good approach to the supplementary hormones, where, I mean, my preference would be to focus on the biggest picture, broadest kind of, you know, when you're looking at the umbrella of the hormones, like starting at the top, because, as we're kind of alluding to, it's when you just are focusing on one particular pathway and one particular hormone and just trying to increase that one thing, like, as you said, testosterone. You just try to add testosterone onto a system that isn't ready for it. You end up driving stress further. And then, as you mentioned, there's also going to be a lot of aromatization of, you know, converting that testosterone to estrogen. So there's a lot of potential problems there. So because of that, assuming that a lot of diet and lifestyle things are in place, there are some hormones that I would look to first to supplement to help with Hormonal Health. The first would tend to be thyroid, again, if used appropriately, and then pregnant alone or DHEA would be ones that I would look to, as well as ones that can convert down, you know, downstream to other androgens like testosterone, if the conditions are right for that, and if not, they have their own benefits. That might be slightly less androgenic, but still can be anabolic, but also can just be generally. Pro metabolic and helpful if you know, just by having those hormones alone, even if they aren't converted to anything downstream. So that's part of the reason why I would start with those sorts of things, as opposed to getting into any of the like very particular androgenic hormones. Yeah.

Mike 45:15
And I think, I think depending on what your goals are right? If your goal is health, and it's not to be Mr Olympia, and I think that's the context that we framed here. If you want to be Mr Olympia, I think you're going to have to use a whole bunch of things that may not be good for you. I think that's very likely, maybe not, but I think that's likely so. But in the context of health, I would, I think staying away from a lot of the synthetic steroids, even like, is probably priority number one, like the synthetic androgen derivatives, like, especially like ridiculous ones, like trend alone, or anything like that. And then, even then, like, I think if you the next step is to before adding like, straight up testosterone, like base testosterone onto a system to adjust everything else that's going on first, as far as diet and lifestyle and all that, and then try maybe precursor hormones first, right? And then, because, even if you were going to use the like testosterone, I think it would probably be important to have those precursor hormones on board. And I know that Georgie or hayda has put out quite a decent amount of solid work talking about the protective effects of using pregnant alone and DHEA within using testosterone. And I know there's some other doctors who have talked about using those with any type of testosterone replacement therapy, just to make sure that you have you all the pathways are filled and you're not causing issues with just having taking testosterone and shutting because it does shut everything else down. Higher doses of testosterone will shut things down. And so after all that said, the next thing I think that's, and it's, it's not that this is less important than the previous step, but it's using the lowest dose possible to get the effect that you're that you want. And there's a huge movement within the bodybuilding sphere to actually as far as maintaining your testosterone levels once you hop on testosterone replacement therapy, the lot of these guys are talking about using physiologic doses in the sense that if you're going to replace, just replace with the amount of testosterone that you would need for that specific day, and then dosing like more regularly, so like dosing on a daily schedule, instead of taking ridiculously high doses one time a week or or one time a month, or whatever the dosing schedule is for the specific Ester they were the a lot of guys are moving towards, like number one, using the precursors, but then also using the testosterone base in that physiologic amount, because that's when the higher you go with the doses. As far as I've seen, some more likely you are to get the side effects and so and especially. The The other thing to keep in mind is half life of these substances, how long they last in the system. You can use be using a regular dose, but if you're using it very frequently, your the half life, or how long it lasts in your body, can build up over time, and then you wind up actually sitting at higher dosages. And then the side effects can start to kick in, and then it will take a little while for it to get out, because the other body has to basically excrete all of it. So those are, I think, really important things to keep in mind. Just a brief we want to use the lowest dose possible. We want to stick with the precursors before we go further down the chain. And we want to make sure that the system is addressed before any of that occurs. So yeah, like, there's, there's benefits to using these hormones. No one, neither of us, are denying that there's benefits with using something like testosterone or or even DHT or even progesterone or whatever. It's just, there's a way that I think it has to be done appropriately and and then safely. And I think that Ray, I think when you when people hear Ray talk, or they listen to Ray talk, Ray is like, everything he does is out of extreme caution. Well, to a large extent, I think, I think as because he's already gone through and played with things, and a lot of us are just getting to and I think he he's seen like he tries some things, they feel good, and then they have bad effects, whatever it is. And it's sort of like trying to minimize risk for yourself, right? Because while some of these things can be extremely helpful, some of them are also pretty powerful, and you can really cause some, like, some issues for yourself, right? So you don't want to make be making yourself extremely worse. So that's why it's, you know, address lifestyle, micronutrient and macronutrient deficiencies, stress, sleep, exercise, all that stuff first, and then you can start building on with, with if, if everything that stuff isn't working yet. Then you can start looking at okay, thyroid hormone. And then you can start looking at all the precursor hormone. DHEA pregnant alone. And then after that, maybe you can look at, depending on where you are, like a very low dose testosterone, low dose, meaning within physiologic levels, and then maybe, like, extremely low dose Dhg or something like that. And I'm not, I'm not promoting any of those things. I'm just saying that's the clinical course that I would look at, or that's the supplemental course I would look at, with things, rather than just hopping right on TRT, I would really want to make sure that the state and the system and everything was in line first, and then slowly build and roll up to it. But even then, what, what I've seen from a lot of people is that once you get that other stuff right, you don't, you know, it doesn't, doesn't have to go all the way down that route. It's kind of unnecessary, and sometimes it's overkill. And this is from the health perspective. If you want to get like, super ripped, whatever, get like huge to levels that aren't necessarily natural for somebody, then we're then that's an entirely different conversation and story, right so...

Jay Feldman 51:01
Yeah, absolutely. And so what I was going to mention earlier was that the because the hormones can help to resolve some of the issues as well. Sometimes there can be, you know, we've talked about microbial issues before. And so here's, here's an example of this, where when Rifaximin is used for SIBO, it's not always effective, and there's a very high relapse rate. And they found that in cases where it's not effective, which, for those who don't know, Rifaximin is an antibiotic for for SIBO, and they found that when it's not effective, or the cases where this isn't effective, are associated with lower angiogenic profiles and increased estrogens and sex hormone binding globulin and so the So, what I'm trying to get at is that sometimes, you know, there's a place for using these hormones to help to fix gut function, as opposed to always saying you need to fix gut function first. But again, this is in the context of already having addressed a lot of things diet wise. It's not like we're taking someone who has a less than optimal diet, whether, you know, not even like, as far as a low carb diet, but just, you know, eating a lot of PUFA or grains or whatever it is, and then they're saying that they're having gut issues. We're not just saying, throw androgens on top of that, but if you know, sometimes, if those dietary things have been adjusted, there's a place for using the hormones to help to resolve an intestinal issue, for example, rather than just waiting until those foundational things are better. Yeah, I think, as you're saying, Go ahead, go ahead, as you were saying, they a lot of times, if those things are resolved, they aren't necessary, a lot of it will sort itself out. And we want to be we want our bodies to be sorting itself out. We want to be fixing things on that big picture level, so that we don't have to worry about downstream hormones, for example.

Mike 52:45
Yeah, I think it's a pyramid, right? You want to build start out in the pyramid with diet, lifestyle type of stuff, then supplements, then move more and, like, a little bit in towards, like, I guess pharmaceutical, hormone stuff, by pharmaceutical I'm talking about, like, the general stuff that we've mentioned, nothing hardcore. Those could be like, your aspirin, your your thyroid, your DHEA, pregnant alone, maybe some of the dopamine drugs, if, like, prolactin is super high, just to move the system in a particular direction. And then after that, you start getting into, like, the harder, the harder stuff, which is your testosterone. DHT, things like, things in those areas that are like, really potent and move the system pretty strongly. So. And for women, I think progesterone can actually be used a little bit earlier as as a supplement for their system, instead of having be considered like in the same range as testosterone. So overall, it's, I think it has to be built up in a pyramid, right? The other layers are completely dependent upon the bottom layers for for functioning correctly. You can't just draw, throw on the the top brick and think that it's going to support itself. About the foundation?

Jay Feldman 53:58
Yep, yep. I agree, yeah. Well, one, I mean, just to clarify, also, just was looking back at that study at the association between, you know, the lower androgens, and this is that, you know, the how well reflection works at getting rid of SIBO, and they did find that when they would then use anabolic steroids, that raised the androgen levels and decreased sex hormone binding globulin. They there was dramatic improvement in in placebo symptoms when you know, using the same treatment. So, yeah, just wanted to add that in, but yeah, I don't think you have anything else to add, as far as just big picture things or or anything else at all. Yeah, all right, that's going to wrap up this series on men's Hormonal Health. If you did enjoy it, please leave a like or comment. If you're watching on YouTube and if you're listening elsewhere, please leave a five star rating on iTunes or a review. All of those things really do a lot to help support the podcast and are very much appreciated. To check out the show notes for today's episode, head over to Jay. Jay Feldman wellness.com/podcast where you can take a look at the articles and studies and anything else that we referenced throughout today's episode, and if you are struggling with any of the hormonal symptoms that we've been discussing today or through any of the previous episodes on men's Hormonal Health, and maybe you're not sure where to begin, maybe you're a little overwhelmed with everything that we've discussed, or you're a little unsure as far as how you can apply this information. Or maybe you've been trying to apply this information or implementing it for a long time, but you've hit some roadblocks, or you aren't really sure where to go next. Then head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/call, where you can sign up for a free call with me, where I'd be happy to talk with you about your situation and offer some suggestions as far as how you can apply this information, or what you can maybe try next in order to resolve the symptoms that you're dealing with. So again, to sign up for that free call, you can head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/call, and if you are dealing with any of these symptoms, or any other low energy symptoms, whether that's chronic cravings and hunger, fatigue, chronic pain, poor sleep, digestive symptoms, brain fog, or any other low energy symptoms or chronic health conditions. Then head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, where you can sign up for a free energy balance mini course, where I will walk you through the main things that you can do, from a diet and lifestyle perspective, to improve your cellular energy, and also explain why this is the key to resolving these symptoms and conditions. So to sign up for that free energy balance mini course, head over to Jay Feldman wellness.com/energy, and with that, I'll see you in the next episode.